Andrew Davis is a Commercial Placement Broker and Account Manager at Wilson M. Beck Insurance Services Alberta, a boutique insurance brokerage specializing in customized insurance solutions for commercial clients across Canada. He brings extensive experience in policy placement, risk management, and client service, with a growing focus on supporting optometry practices. Andrew helps business owners navigate complex insurance requirements, identify coverage gaps, and find cost-effective solutions. He focuses on making insurance clear and manageable so optometrists can concentrate on patient care and growing the practice.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
- [01:45] Andrew Davis explains how Wilson M. Beck Insurance Services serves optometrists with specialized insurance
- [03:14] Why expedited claims matter for your optometry practice
- [04:38] What questions to ask insurers for faster equipment replacement
- [06:48] The key difference between replacement cost and cash value
- [09:08] How business interruption insurance protects your practice’s revenue
- [12:20] Just-have policies every optometry office should consider
- [13:54] Tips on cyber insurance to guard against data breaches
- [14:33] Real-world scenarios covered by general liability insurance
- [19:37] How adjusting your deductible can lower your premium
- [22:07] Comparing insurance needs for standalone buildings versus leased spaces
In this episode…
Running a successful optometry practice means balancing patient care with all the realities of business ownership. But when it comes to protecting your livelihood, many practice owners don’t fully understand what’s covered (or not covered) by their insurance policies. From specialized equipment to business interruptions, what should optometrists really look for when insuring their practices?
According to Andrew Davis, a commercial insurance expert with extensive experience supporting healthcare professionals, the key is understanding how coverage actually works before disaster strikes. He highlights the importance of replacement cost over cash value policies, ensuring that damaged or stolen equipment can be replaced in full rather than at a depreciated rate. Andrew also explains how business interruption coverage can sustain income during closures and why comprehensive packages — including general liability, property, and cyber insurance — are essential.
In this episode of the Cleinman Connect Podcast, Kim Carson sits down with Andrew Davis, Commercial Placement Broker and Account Manager at Wilson M. Beck Insurance Services Alberta, to discuss how optometrists can protect their practices with the appropriate insurance. They explore the differences between replacement cost and cash value, the role of business interruption coverage, and why cyber insurance is becoming increasingly critical.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
- Kevin Wilhelm on LinkedIn
- Marketing4ECPs
- Cleinman Performance Partners
- POD Marketing
- Andrew Davis on LinkedIn
- Wilson M. Beck Insurance Services
- “Driving Growth in Independent Practices With Amanda Van Voris” on the Cleinman Connect Podcast
Quotable Moments:
- “If you have an insurer that already has relationships with manufacturers, the timeline to replace equipment is faster.”
- “You don’t want a cash settlement for a piece of equipment that you need to run your business.”
- “Business interruption will kick in and provide you profits on an actual loss-sustained basis.”
- “If you have not remarketed or reevaluated your insurance program in the last two years, you are likely paying over 10% more than you otherwise should be.”
- “We’ve built a program for you; we understand the way that your business operates.”
Action Steps:
- Review your current insurance policy: Understanding your existing coverage helps identify gaps and ensures your practice is fully protected.
- Choose replacement cost coverage over cash value: This guarantees your essential equipment can be replaced in full after a loss.
- Add business interruption insurance: It safeguards your income and keeps operations stable if your practice must temporarily close.
- Evaluate your deductible and premium balance: Adjusting these wisely can lower costs without compromising the protection your business needs.
- Consider cyber insurance coverage: Protecting sensitive patient and payment data helps your practice respond quickly to breaches and financial risks.
Sponsor for this episode…
This episode is brought to you by Marketing4ECPs!
Working with them is like hiring a full-time marketing professional who knows the industry and understands your goals. Except, instead of one experienced marketer, you get a whole team in your corner.
Whether you’re an optometrist, ophthalmologist, or optician, they can help you grow your business with a plan that’s completely customized for you. Learn more, here.
Episode Transcript
Intro: 00:07
Welcome to the Cleinman Connect Podcast, where we discuss marketing, ownership, growth strategies, and everything else surrounding the business of optometry. Cleinman is Optometry’s trusted business partner for over 35 years. Hello, I’m Kim Carson, hosting Andrew Davis of Wilson M. Beck Insurance Services, Alberta on this episode of the Cleinman Connect Podcast. Past guests of the show are the Al Cleinman and Amanda Van Voris. Both of their episodes are available at cleinman.com or wherever you like to listen.
So, Andrew, this episode is actually brought to you by Marketing4ECPs. Working with them is like hiring a full time marketing professional who knows the industry and understands your goals, except instead of one experienced marketer, you get a whole team in your corner, whether you’re an optometrist, ophthalmologist, or optician, they can help you grow your business with a plan that’s completely customized for you. Learn more at marketing then the number four. So marketing4ecps.com. And I am joined today by Andrew Davis. He is a Commercial Placement Broker and Account Manager at Wilson M. Beck Insurance Services in Alberta, or W.M. Beck as we might refer to them in this podcast, where he specializes in policy placement, client service and risk management across commercial insurance lines.
Welcome to the podcast.
Andrew Davis 01:30
Thanks so much for having me, Kim. It’s great to be here.
Kim Carson 01:33
It’s a great way to spend, you know, a early early afternoon.
Andrew Davis 01:38
Especially on a Friday.
Kim Carson 01:39
Yes, absolutely. Can you tell me a little bit about W and B.
Andrew Davis 01:45
Wilson M. Beck is a boutique brokerage. We have 13 offices across Canada. We do business in all but one province, Quebec. Not enough French speakers. But you know, we’re otherwise Canada wide.
We focus on construction, hospitality, real estate and branching into optometry. We also put together a wonderful program for that.
Kim Carson 02:08
Okay, amazing. And just so you know, before any of my American listeners just kind of like, shut this off and go away. You don’t operate in the US.
Andrew Davis 02:20
Correct? We do not operate on the in the US stand alone. But if you have a Canadian business that also includes operations in the States, we can assist you with setting up an admitted policy.
Kim Carson 02:31
Okay. Perfect. So you and W and Bec would maybe have some knowledge about US policies and and could help in that way.
Andrew Davis 02:40
Certainly we are familiar with the accord form, but license wise we tend to partner with with US brokers.
Kim Carson 02:47
Okay. Amazing. Well just if you are based in the US, don’t scroll away. Don’t don’t go away so fast just because you heard Alberta, this this advice could maybe help you as well. So branching into optometry, what what does that entail?
You have a specific package for optometrists. You all wanted a good deal on frames or or what is branching into optometry mean for an insurance company.
Andrew Davis 03:14
Branching into optometry? You know, I think about the market conditions first as why we looked at optometry as as an area of focus is optometry offices. They take special equipment. It’s it’s niche equipment. And it’s a very important business people need to see.
So we looked at the market conditions. It’s a it’s a bearish market if you will. We call it a soft market in insurance. Insurance rates are going down but insurance isn’t the top of mind thought I think for most most optometry practices. So we thought it was a great opportunity to partner with an insurance company that has the ability to acquire these pieces of equipment and these parts very quickly.
So expedited claims for optometry offices, partner with them and provide them with improved rates. Time to take another look at your insurance and time to save some money.
Kim Carson 04:05
Okay, and when you say expedited, can you kind of describe what that means? Like if I am an optometrist and I have something come up that I need to call my insurance for, what, like before I even call my insurance company? What should I be looking for in an insurance company? And then you use the word expedited. It makes me think faster.
So how how does your process work? And what should I, as you know, this hypothetical optometrist, be asking insurance companies when I’m approaching them, contemplating doing business with them?
Andrew Davis 04:38
You know, I would love to suggest an easy, overarching question, but I can predict the response that you’re going to get when you ask a question even easier. And it’s going to be it depends. It’s the first thing that you’re going to hear out of a broker’s mouth, or out of an underwriter’s mouth, or anybody that works in insurance, because it really does depend on the circumstances. But what we’ve tried to do here, and why I use the word expedited is if you have an insurer that already has relationships with manufacturers of these pieces of equipment and these parts, then the timeline that it takes to replace this equipment is going to be faster. That’s why it’s expedited.
Obviously there’s a coverage that is expediting expense. So you also have that ability to tag things on to move things even faster. But having somebody that already has those relationships, it’s not like you have to explain to the insurer what your business is. We’ve already done that for you. They have a good understanding of the industry.
We’re able to replace parts sooner than other insurers otherwise would be.
Kim Carson 05:37
Okay. It kind of sounds like W.M. Beck and Cleinman have this in common where, you know, there there are other insurance companies, there are other consultancies. But this kind of avenue is what we do. We we have partnered with trusted people in the industry.
You know, Cleinman has been around for over 35 years in the eye care space. But it sounds like, you know, people behind the scenes at WME are like making the deals. They’re making the connections with, with you said suppliers.
Andrew Davis 06:09
So it’s the insurance company that will make the relationship with the supplier. But then we cozied up to the insurance company that has those existing relationships to be able to deliver this to optometry offices.
Kim Carson 06:20
Okay. Amazing. When we talked before, you said something that I would like to maybe just clarify for people that don’t, you know, like myself that maybe don’t know a ton of insurance terms, you said cash value versus stock and then replacement cost versus cash. Would you mind just like explaining what that is and like maybe clearing that up for people who have like the curlies around their head, like I do that they’re like, what does that mean?
Andrew Davis 06:48
Certainly. And this is a very important part of insurance is the valuation Situation on how the insurance company is going to pay you out. So I brought up two different methods, which is replacement costs. So replacing it with something of a like kind and quality. And then there’s actual cash value which is similar to replacement cost but includes depreciation.
So depreciation over time or once you, you know for instance buy a car it’s going to go down in value really quickly. Now thinking about this with optometry equipment the same goes right. If it does depreciate in value then you could be seeing a significantly. You know you’re not being indemnified fully. You could consider yourself because you’re not getting that full value back actually.
And you know, you don’t want a cash settlement for a piece of equipment that you need to run your business. So it’s very important to have replacement costs in your policy. And I think particularly for optometry offices.
Kim Carson 07:46
Okay. So then replacement cost would be like whatever I paid for the item. Not necessarily what it’s worth at the time or.
Andrew Davis 07:55
Other than that actually. So it’s not thinking about what you bought it for. What the. Yeah. What the standard price is on the market now.
It’s saying, look, you had that piece of equipment, we’re going to get you that piece of equipment, okay. So you don’t have to worry about the dollars and cents. It’s about being made whole again.
Kim Carson 08:13
Okay. Perfect. It’s not like oh my gosh, it’s on sale today. Like can I have that money now? And we’ll just get it.
Andrew Davis 08:19
Actual cash value instead.
Kim Carson 08:21
Yeah.
Andrew Davis 08:21
You know, let’s say you spent a hundred grand on the equipment, but you know, it’s depreciated 20 grand. The the insurance company is only going to give you 80 now you’re 20 short of getting back up and running again.
Kim Carson 08:32
Right okay. So replacement cost better.
Andrew Davis 08:35
Way better.
Kim Carson 08:36
Okay. But possibly look for that on any insurance policies you may sign.
Andrew Davis 08:42
Make sure you have it. There’s no reason you shouldn’t.
Kim Carson 08:47
Then you also said business interruption was one of the other terms that you used when we talk or spoke earlier. Can you explain what that is? And like what maybe it would cover?
Andrew Davis 09:00
First I’ll tell you what it is.
Kim Carson 09:02
Yeah.
Andrew Davis 09:02
Then I can tell you how it’s determined. And then I can tell you when it comes into effect.
Kim Carson 09:07
Amazing.
Andrew Davis 09:08
Business interruption is if your office is shut down temporarily for an insured peril. So if there’s a fire, there’s a flood, there’s sewer backup, you name it. One of those things happen, then business interruption will kick in, and it will provide you profits on an actual loss sustained basis, as we’ve been providing for that downtime. So if you’re out for two months and you have fixed costs that need to be paid, you know, you’re thinking rents, lease agreements, things of that nature, that that money is still going to be coming in the door. So you have to close your doors.
The money’s still going to come in. It’s going to keep you at the same level. So when you do start operating again, you’re not set back. You know, it’s keeping you immediately before things happened. How it’s determined is we would take a look at your annual revenue, gross revenue and then based on the nature of your business.
So in this case optometrists very similar over and over and over again we would determine a business interruption limit that would keep you whole for 12 months and 24 months, depending on what you’re looking for or what kind of risks we see in your area. If we figure that, you know, if you suffer a loss because of the area that you’re in, the cost of materials, it’s going to take more than 12 months for you to get in there. We don’t want to leave you short and hanging, so we’ll get you a 24 month coverage and that will make you whole again. Insurance rates have gone down significantly. It is a soft market.
If you would consider it a bearish market. If you prefer financial terms, you are likely paying over 10% more than you otherwise should be. If you have not remarketed or reevaluated your insurance program in the last two years, okay In mid 2024, things started to get a lot better. I’m saying now is a great time to take another look at your insurance program and see how you can save money on that angle. We don’t want to make optometry offices focus and and learn and do well.
We’re open to teaching. But you know, we don’t want to put this burden on optometry offices that oh no, I have to dive into insurance. I have to look at this totally other area of my business. We want you to focus on doing what you do best. So we want to take that off of it, off of you and negotiate on your behalf.
And now is the is the best time to do it. We’ve been we’ve been seeing savings across across Canada and with Ontario West. We’ve been saving people between 20 and 35% on their insurance premiums.
Kim Carson 11:33
Wow. Yeah, that’s not a small amount.
Andrew Davis 11:36
Not at.
Kim Carson 11:36
All. So you would maybe give the piece of advice to anyone, any optometrist listening? Call your insurance company up. Open the app if they have that call you up. If they’re with WMP, Me.
Would you say that there’s anything within an optometry practice? You know, we have covered the equipment that your insurance company has partnerships or a relationship with, at the very least to to replace things quickly. Is there anything else that an optometrist should consider when they get their practice evaluated or, or something that they should just like make sure is in their policy?
Andrew Davis 12:20
The make sure is on your policy and the things that you should be thinking about when you’re talking to your insurer. I see I hate to be the one to say it, but I’m going to have to go right back to it depends, because, you know, how big is your practice? Do you have multiple locations? I think at a at a base level, you’re going to want to ensure that you have a commercial general liability policy, a property, a property policy, which would include equipment breakdown, business interruption and crime. And then if you’re taking things a step further and you have a large online presence, you might store client data.
Now you’re starting to think, okay, I need cyber insurance. Cyber insurance is new to the market. A lot of people don’t understand how it works, how it interacts with the actual operation of your business. I can explain that quickly, saying, look, if you have files or customer data, you know, I’m thinking about the PCI. You know, that’s payment credit card information or personal health information.
If you store any of that data, that presents a pretty significant risk. And that’s where cyber insurance steps in. And we also have good cyber insurance partners that step in right away. It’s not like you have to suffer a loss. And then they look at the loss for six months and decide what to do.
Then it’s the moment you encounter something you’re going through something. You call them up. They’re on 24 over seven, and they’re immediately assisting you with the cyber breach or whichever incident you’re handling.
Kim Carson 13:53
Okay.
Andrew Davis 13:54
And the key on that is. Sorry to interrupt.
Kim Carson 13:56
No, no, please.
Andrew Davis 13:57
On that is social engineering. It’s becoming very popular nowadays. We all have a lot of spam phone calls.
Kim Carson 14:05
Yeah.
Andrew Davis 14:05
You pick up the phone and somebody says, hey, you know, you guys forgot to pay me. I’m so and so. And you go, oh, wait, no, we do deal with so and so. They’re so important to us. We need to make sure we pay you.
And all of a sudden you sent the check and it’s a little bit too late, you think, or your cyber insurance is going to step in to save you.
Kim Carson 14:24
So can you tell me a bit about general liability insurance? Does it come on this this optometrist package that you guys at Wmk have put together?
Andrew Davis 14:33
Certainly it is an all encompassing, all encompassing package. Commercial general liability is what protects the practical operation of your business. So you’re going to be thinking about slip and falls if it’s icy out front. That’s a very common one that comes to mind where this coverage particularly differs from what you might think of with property insurance, and how it responds, is that this is a third party coverage versus property insurance. You’re thinking about a first party coverage.
So first party being yourself the insured, the second party being the insurance company and the third party being anybody that interacts with your business. This is a pretty crucial coverage. I know a lot of people have, you know, between 2 and $3 million limits these days, very inexpensive to get an upgrade to 5 million. And it is essential for the practical running of of any business and is an insurance requirement on most lease policies very key to have this coverage.
Kim Carson 15:26
Okay. Can I just throw out a couple scenarios to you and you just say yes, if it would be covered in general liability or no.
Andrew Davis 15:32
Let’s do.
Kim Carson 15:33
It. Okay. So yeah, I see outside I haven’t salted the walkway yet.
Andrew Davis 15:37
And somebody slips and falls.
Kim Carson 15:38
Yes. Oh yeah. Sorry. And somebody falls.
Andrew Davis 15:41
But yes that, that that would be something where the policy would respond.
Kim Carson 15:45
Okay, my receptionist knocks over a cup of water and somebody slips inside of my practice.
Andrew Davis 15:54
Boom. Yes, covered. Also. Okay, if she’s spilled hot water like a coffee or something on a client, then okay. Also covered.
Kim Carson 16:03
Okay. And all of it’s accidental. Like if what if there’s an altercation and somebody is upset and a physical altercation happens.
Andrew Davis 16:14
Now we’re starting to get into the. It depends, you know, employees that’s fighting a client. Is it to clients that are fighting one another and they get injured. It starts to go down another realm, you know, okay, the criminal, once you get into violence and then.
Kim Carson 16:28
Right, right, right. Okay. So that was a that was a bad scenario perhaps. Somebody okay. Maybe this is a a another it depends.
But let’s say that somebody is a vandal. They throw a brick through my practices window, but it hits somebody once it gets inside.
Andrew Davis 16:49
Yes. You thinking about covering a client in that instance? It would also call in your crime policy for coverage building damage by theft. That could also be listed on your property policy, but as a package holistically. Yeah.
You’re looking at multiple issues there. But yes.
Kim Carson 17:07
Okay. Okay. I can’t think of.
Andrew Davis 17:09
Legal liability is what I want to throw in there. It’s not something often thought about, but if you do have a lease space, you’re thinking about damage to that lease space. You’re damaging a third party. That’s another circumstance when the commercial general liability policy will kick in.
Kim Carson 17:24
Okay. Okay. Amazing. Thank you, thank you. I’m like, what other scenarios could happen?
Andrew Davis 17:31
And the only one that really clicks in is slip and falls, right when you think about that policy. But it also, you know, if there’s you can think about really niche scenarios. Don’t put this one in here because it’s my idea. But, like, if you’re building lights on fire, the smoke damage caused to the other building.
Kim Carson 17:50
Oh, yeah.
Andrew Davis 17:51
In certain cases, that’s also covered.
Kim Carson 17:53
Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that’s kind of what I was thinking when I was asking about, like, a standalone building versus like when you share walls with people. Like, what if something happens in their area and then it affects your area?
Andrew Davis 18:08
Commercial general liability.
Kim Carson 18:09
Okay.
Andrew Davis 18:10
Commercial liability for a third party?
Kim Carson 18:13
Yeah.
Andrew Davis 18:14
Is injured. Then you’re going to be thinking commercial general liability. Now this is why I said don’t quite throw that in there because the you have professional liability too, which is going to include the medical malpractice for these doctors. That’s something that, you know, we don’t want to rub the associations the wrong way. So we’re not going to write that coverage because they have a deal through the association.
We can access layers for it. But let’s say if you give somebody the wrong advice or you gave them the wrong contacts, It ended up damaging their eyes more. That’s when start to lead down. That trail of professional liability is that whenever you watch somebody that is licensed or recognized to hold a certain level of education, providing advice or services to another, that hits the professional liability, general liability. You’re talking about Joe Schmo, right?
The average.
Kim Carson 19:02
Okay. Oh my goodness. Okay.
Andrew Davis 19:03
Let me throw that extra bit in there though I know my my coworkers would be ashamed of me if I forgot to have it in there.
Kim Carson 19:09
Hello. What about people slipping and falling?
Andrew Davis 19:13
The most famous claim my neck.
Kim Carson 19:17
I would like to ask a question about the cost of a premium versus the cost of a deductible. Do you have any information or opinions on having a higher deductible, and would that lead to having a lower premium or vice versa? Or perhaps that doesn’t kind of factor in at all.
Andrew Davis 19:37
So quick overarching I’m just going to define terms to make sure that everybody listening understands. Premium. This is your monthly or annual cost for your policy. It’s the money that you’re paying the insurance company to identify you in the case of a loss. A deductible is your skin in the game.
It means before the insurance company is going to pay out, you have to pay this amount. Now the relationship between premium and deductible is if your premium is high and you’re looking to lower it, you can increase your deductible to lower your premium. It’s done on a loss load basis. So it’ll come down percentage points. You know you could be saying okay, I have a $1,000 deductible.
If I go up to five, they’re going to decrease my premium by 5%. Just picking a number out of thin air, right. Now a lot of that I think is based on your risk tolerance. So if you wouldn’t be comfortable paying out five, ten grand to get your equipment back, it doesn’t make sense to increase your deductible. It also plays into, you know, what kind of losses do you foresee yourself having?
You know, or you think, are you only worried about the large losses, the water damage, the sewer backup, the earthquake, or, you know, fires a massive one? You want to think about that deductible, too? That relationship kind of plays in with the loss. Loading. But I’d be very hesitant to recommend to any optometry office to have a deductible over $1,000.
I think when we think about losses, we want to talk about fire, primarily considering the nature of the business. You have a lot of electrical equipment in there. That’s the most likely event. You know, obviously geographical issues. That’s when you look at those catastrophic perils like earthquake and water damage, right?
Not necessarily for for fires. So, you know, you think about your stock and equipment. A thousand bucks is pretty reasonable. So if you lost a ten K piece of equipment or you lost, you know, 20, 25 grand worth of stock, you’re not going to want to throw five grand at that, right? You’re only going to be a thousand.
And the rates are so low now that you should stick with 1000. And in this market, you should be looking at lowering your deductible. If you are over that 2500 1000 range.
Kim Carson 21:46
Okay. And would you say that policies differ based on I’m thinking of optometrists with standalone buildings as opposed to practices that are in, you know, a strip mall or they have neighbors on the sides of them. Would you highlight any differences between those policies?
Andrew Davis 22:07
Certainly. So if you’re leasing a space in a strip mall or in a mall or in a professional building you’re not really worried about, you know, what happens to the building that’s going to be on the building owner’s policy. You’re worried about the stuff inside, so you’re not going to have building coverage, but you are going to want to think about tenants improvements if you’ve made upgrades to the space. I know a lot of professional buildings that you go in. It’s built for an office, it’s built for computers.
It’s not built for large pieces of equipment to take a bunch of electricity. So you may have to go in there and upgrade the electrical if you’re moving into that space. And those are largely the concerns I think about. Or, you know, you’re going in it’s carpet everywhere. You want to put tile down.
Those upgrades that you make fall under tenants improvements. You would want to ensure that value. But otherwise you know building rates as well. They are lower now, but you will see a higher premium compared to somebody that’s just insuring a few rooms versus an entire building. Right.
And there are other concerns. If you are a building owner and you have you do own the building and you practice maybe within that. So you want to think about getting certificates of insurance from your other tenants to make sure that you’re listed on their commercial general liability policy. There’s a lot more nitty gritty things that you want to make sure you’re checking those boxes off if you do own the building.
Kim Carson 23:28
Okay, I have just one final question for you. And before I ask it, I want to send people to Cleinman. If they have any questions about today’s episode, or if they would like to listen to other episodes. But my final question is, do you have any advice or anything that maybe we didn’t cover today that you would like to any optometrist listening to know, and you can narrow it down to Canadian practices excluding Quebec, or it can be more generalized, just just anything you would like them to know.
Andrew Davis 24:02
We’ve built a program for you. This is what I want them to know is that if you come to us, we understand the way that your business operates. We’re not going to take you through a list of 200 questions to learn about your business. We’re going to take you through a list of 20. It’s not going to be back and forth 200 emails.
You can give us a call. We’ll walk through it together, and we can get a quote for you and tell you how it differs from what you currently have, and spot gaps and what you currently have. It’s the time to look at your insurance, and, you know, even if you choose not to call me, now’s the time to look. We’re in this to help. How optometry offices.
Look at it. Save the money.
Kim Carson 24:40
And what was your website?
Andrew Davis 24:41
Our website is www.wmbeck.com.
Kim Carson 24:46
Okay. Perfect. Well thank you, Andrew, for all of your clarifications on terms. I certainly needed it. And your time today.
Andrew Davis 24:55
Thank you so much for having me on, Kim. This has been delightful.
Kim Carson 24:58
Yay! Okay, well, that was our show. If you want to hear more again, you can go to cleinman.com. And you can listen to these episodes wherever you like to listen to podcasts in general. Thank you for joining us today.
Outro: 25:10
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