James Johnson is the Head of Business Development at Cleinman. With experience across marketing, client relations, AV, and business development, James helps identify what practices need and connects them with tailored solutions. He is known for building strong relationships with clients and sponsor partners while keeping value, fit, and long-term growth at the center of each partnership.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
- [02:41] How James Johnson’s path to Cleinman shaped his role in business development
- [08:54] How James chooses sponsor partners that bring real value to practices
- [12:28] Why doctors’ biggest challenges are often symptoms of a deeper issue
- [15:20] How client feedback drives Cleinman’s evolving service offerings
- [17:27] The two crucial questions every optometry owner should ask about their practice
- [20:22] Why meaningful connections and tailored support set Cleinman apart
In this episode…
Building a successful practice takes more than offering great care. It also requires the right partners, the right support, and the ability to recognize what will actually move the business forward. So how can practice owners build relationships that create real value instead of simply adding more services or vendors?
The answer starts with listening closely enough to understand what a practice truly needs. As a business development leader focused on practice growth and strategic partnerships, James Johnson sees value-driven support as a matter of fit, not a one-size-fits-all solution. He explains that the challenge a doctor brings forward is often only a symptom, which is why practice owners need to understand where they are, where they want to go, and what kind of help will get them there. James also emphasizes the importance of choosing partners who align with a practice’s goals, culture, and long-term vision, because the right relationship should help both sides grow with purpose.
In this episode of the Cleinman Connect Podcast, Kim Carson chats with James Johnson, Head of Business Development at POD Marketing’s Cleinman Division, about creating value-driven partnerships for your practice. James discusses client feedback, sponsor partner fit, and tailored support for practice growth. He also shares key questions every owner should ask.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
- Kevin Wilhelm on LinkedIn
- Marketing4ECPs
- Cleinman Performance Partners
- POD Marketing
- James Johnson on LinkedIn
- “Lead by Design: Supporting Personal & Professional Growth” with Nancy Dewald on the Cleinman Connect Podcast
- “[Optometrist Unleashed] Healing the Ocular Surface” with Dr. Julian Prosia on the Cleinman Connect Podcast
- Alan Cleinman on LinkedIn
- Olivia Leduc on LinkedIn
Quotable Moments:
- “We want to help them with whatever they’re struggling with.”
- “If you know where you are and you know where you’re going and you know how to get there, go for it.”
- “Optometry is a challenging business; there’s a lot of aspects to it.”
- “The end goal here is we want to be a one-stop shop, helping doctors grow their business.”
- “It’s very important because if it’s the wrong person in the room, it just ruins the whole culture.”
Action Steps:
- Foster continuous client feedback loops: Actively seeking client input ensures services evolve to meet their needs, boosting satisfaction and loyalty.
- Tailor services to client goals: Understanding and aligning with each client’s vision guarantees solutions are meaningful and impactful for their growth.
- Build strategic partnerships based on shared values: Partnering with businesses that align culturally enhances collaboration and leads to mutual success.
- Assess industry trends and emerging technologies regularly: Staying ahead of the curve allows you to offer cutting-edge solutions that drive innovation and competitive advantage.
- Prioritize personalized support over one-size-fits-all solutions: Customizing services creates stronger, more value-driven relationships, fostering long-term growth and client retention.
Sponsor for this episode…
This episode is brought to you by Marketing4ECPs!
Working with them is like hiring a full-time marketing professional who knows the industry and understands your goals. Except, instead of one experienced marketer, you get a whole team in your corner.
Whether you’re an optometrist, ophthalmologist, or optician, they can help you grow your business with a plan that’s completely customized for you. Learn more here.
Powered by Rise25 Podcast Production Company
Episode Transcript
Intro: 00:07
Welcome to the Cleinman Connect Podcast, where we discuss marketing, ownership, growth strategies and everything else surrounding the business of optometry. Cleinman is Optometry’s trusted business partner for over 35 years.
Hello, I’m Kim Carson, hosting James Johnson, Head of Business Development, on this episode of the podcast. Past guests of the show include Nancy Dewald and Dr. Julian Prosia. You can listen to those episodes and more at Cleinman.com.
This episode is brought to you by Marketing4ECPs. Working with them is like hiring a full time marketing professional who knows the industry and understands your goals. Except instead of one experienced marketer, you get a whole team in your corner. Whether you’re an optometrist or ophthalmologist or optician, they can help you grow your business with a plan that’s completely customized for you. Learn more at marketing4ecps.com. So marketing4ecps.com.
I’m joined today by James Johnson. He holds a master’s degree from what did you say late in Leiden? Leiden. Leiden University in the Netherlands, where he gained a deep understanding of organizational dynamics and strategic planning. As the Head of Business Development, he excels in building strong relationships and driving business growth with a keen insight into partnership and client needs, James works closely with our consulting team to develop tailored strategies that deliver value for our partners. His dedication helps clients receive personalized attention, exceptional support, and needed solutions, enhancing our reputation for excellence. Welcome, James.
James Johnson: 01:42
Thank you.
Kim Carson: 01:43
Yeah, of course. I love reading someone’s bio to them when I can see them seeing me read it.
James Johnson: 01:49
Yeah, that was a unique experience for me too. It was kind of like, it’s kind of like you’re reading my memoir to me.
Kim Carson: 01:54
Oh my gosh. Yeah, I, you know what I’ve always wanted to have maybe this is a bit a bit grim, but I’ve always wanted to have like a funeral for myself. But I get to attend it and hear what people say.
James Johnson: 02:07
Yeah. Yeah.
Kim Carson: 02:09
Maybe I’ll host it one day and then I can experience what you just experienced. But like, personally. Yeah.
James Johnson: 02:15
Yeah. It’s like an MTV roast, but like the opposite of roasting. It’s just everyone saying nice things about you. Yeah.
Kim Carson: 02:22
Maybe a little bit of a roast. I’d be okay with that. Well, thank you so much for joining today, James. As much as it was thrilling for me to read a bio about you, I would love for you to tell the listeners that are hearing this about yourself. Like what?
How did you end up at Cleinman? What do you do here?
James Johnson: 02:41
Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up with the founder of Cleinman. He’s a close family friend of mine. So I’ve always been exposed to Cleinman. And it’s funny, like Cleinman in our local community.
We all know Al, we all know that Cleinman is a business, but nobody, including myself, knows what the heck Cleinman does because it’s so niche, like consulting for private optometry. So I, I, one day I was like, hey, al, like what? Tell me a little bit about this. I was in business school. I was starting to get interested in those sort of things.
He’s obviously super successful. He’s built a great business. And he opened the door to me and, and he’s like, well, you want to intern with us. And I was like, absolutely, I do. So I was a marketing intern at Cleinman.
Then I shipped off to the Netherlands, got my master’s degree, Covid hit. So, you know, you know, what happens with Covid. No one had jobs or anything. So I came back to the US and, you know, Al knocked on my door. He’s like, hey, we’re still here.
And I was like, all right, let’s give this a real go. So I, so I joined as a, I don’t know what the title was. It was like a marketing specialist. I was in marketing and I was just learning everything I possibly could. It was my first real, like adult job.
So I was, it was my first time like having strategy meetings and like, you know, I was just drinking from a fire hose with all that stuff. It was so exciting for me. That was 2020 2nd February 2022. So that’s when I joined Cleinman. Been here ever since.
I’ve hopped in a lot of roles. We joke internally that I’m kind of the jack of all trades. I do everything from AV at our meetings to what I do now, business development. So I’ve hopped around a lot. It’s been a wonderful experience.
You know, our team is fantastic. I love everyone that I work with and just seeing the organization grow and what we do for our clients, it’s just really rewarding.
Kim Carson: 04:29
Amazing. I was going to say, you are definitely always listed as the AV guy when you’re at the Cleinman Performance meetings. So I’m glad to know that that is not just out of nowhere, it’s just the many hats you wear.
James Johnson: 04:40
Yeah. So. Well, so any of our veteran clients, they’ll remember there was one meeting where our AV team backed out. So we had no AV team. So I ran AV like I was the person doing the board, doing everything.
And I jumped into that seat and it was, I don’t want to say it was a disaster, but it wasn’t great. But ever since then, Like just everyone refers to me as that AV guy that did that thing that one time.
Kim Carson: 05:06
Yeah. I mean, very fair. The like I went to this spring meeting 2025 and our CEO, Kevin, put up the photo of me with the peace sign, my tongue sticking out. Yep. And I still, like, we just had our spring meeting this year and people still are like, hey, you’re the, you’re the peace sign girl.
Yeah. I guess that you will be the AV guy and I will be the peace sign girl no matter how many headshots I change. Yep.
James Johnson: 05:32
Listen, it makes us memorable. That’s what’s important.
Kim Carson: 05:35
Totally. Exactly. So I guess now with your role as head of business development, like, what does that mean? What? What do you do on a day to day?
James Johnson: 05:43
Yeah. So I try to explain it like from an umbrella down. So every revenue generating activity in Cleinman goes through me in some aspect. My job is twofold. One, it’s obviously to grow our business.
But it’s also to ensure that we’re delivering to our clients. So to grow a business successfully, we need to be delivering what we’re promising. We need to be showing value. We need to be doing all those things. So it’s kind of like twofold.
One, yes, I’m out in the field. I’m shaking hands kissing babies. You know, I’m representing Cleinman at events and so on and so forth. But I’m also behind the scenes. I’m really looking at what we’re doing, how we’re doing it, how it’s helping, how it’s driving value, kind of that like client experience role, making sure that we’re really, we’re, we’re doing what we’re say we’re doing.
And, and the industry is seeing us as how we want to be portrayed. So, you know, we can grow and we can help more doctors.
Kim Carson: 06:36
Yeah. Okay. So your, you know, when you have like, I think I mentioned in your bio that you work with our consultants, you make sure that any plans or packages or offers that potential client members are to sign up for, it’s actually something of value for them. They’re actually going to get something out of it, not just buy something from us and be like, that was a wash.
James Johnson: 06:56
Yeah, exactly. Because if you think about it, like I’m having tons of conversations every week with both clients, but also prospects doctors who may be interested in us now or in the future. And I’m just hearing tons of feedback. Everything I’m hearing is, you know, you’re doing this, but I really need this or this could really help me. Can you do that?
So like, I even if we aren’t doing it today, I’m remembering all that. I’m talking with the consulting team. We’re constantly developing new initiatives and services to service the doctors. I mean, the end all goal here is we want to be a one stop shop, and we want to help doctors grow their business any way we can. So that’s like we just recently launched our whole new division, the HR division, because purely because of feedback.
That’s an area doctors needed. So we stepped in. We built a tool to help them. From the initial feedback I’m hearing from it, it is. It’s very helpful.
It’s very successful. And they’re, they’re getting a lot of value out of it, which is fantastic. And Kim, you remember too, we’ve changed that a couple times from the initial thought because you launch something, you get feedback, you tweak it, you get feedback, you tweak it again until it’s, you know, in that sweet spot where it’s really helping the doctors for sure.
Kim Carson: 08:07
Yeah. And, you know, even I think about our HR service now, and I mean, that could change based on feedback as well. Like I think, you know, Olivia Leduc is our manager of strategic HR services and she is actively looking into more things we can offer through our HR services because her feedback is like, yeah, like it’s great. Like, I love all the work you’ve done for me so far, but like, I also really need recruitment. I also really need, you know, help with this.
So it’s constantly evolving. And you’re right, it’s totally based off of client feedback or potential client feedback, as you said.
James Johnson: 08:44
That’s right.
Kim Carson: 08:45
Yeah. So then we’ll shift away from our Cleinman members. You also work with our sponsor partners.
James Johnson: 08:54
Yes. Yeah.
Kim Carson: 08:55
How do you determine them?
James Johnson: 08:57
Totally. So that’s kind of the other half of the spectrum. One half is, you know, getting all the clients in the door. But the other half is in our two meetings a year. We invite industry partners to not only get in front of our doctors so they can grow their businesses, but also their companies that we strongly feel could benefit our clients.
So, you know, in new technologies, new, a lot of AI coming into the picture. So these companies that are really pioneering these new initiatives, we invite them in because as you know, our client base is very, you know, they’re, they’re pioneers, they’re forward thinking. They’re willing to try new things. They’re willing to invest in their business. And that’s the exact kind of client that these newer businesses really need.
So it’s a perfect match. What I do in that, aside from, you know, going out and scouting these companies and having the conversations and seeing if they’re a right fit, I kind of manage. I manage that room, if you will, so we know where the holes are, where we can fill and can’t fill for our clients. for example, you know, marketing for certain specialties like dry eye, there are these areas that we know doctors need. They can, they can excel, they can grow their business with them, but we don’t offer them.
So then I go out into the field and I find where’s the, where’s a company that can fill that hole for our doctors that has a really similar culture to us so that, you know, we can get behind them, they can get behind us, we can help each other while also, you know, ultimately focusing on growing that doctor’s practice. So that’s really what I do in the sponsor realm. We’ve got about 20 sponsors and we, you know, we keep it at about 20. They’re all fantastic businesses, great people. And I know our clients are really valuing it.
Kim Carson: 10:46
Amazing. And I agree, they’re all really great people. I love going to the meetings now for partially, of course, our clan members. I love seeing the doctors and the managers, but our sponsor partners. Amazing.
I think, you know, you’re saying that you went off of, you know what? There was a need for whose cutting edge? Who has something to offer our members? I think you maybe went off vibes a little bit too.
James Johnson: 11:10
100%. I mean, well, it’s so important because if the if it’s the wrong person in the room, it just the whole culture in that room just, you know, it’s, it’s like a, it’s like a bad apple that, that saying, you know, a bad apple makes the whole bunch.
Kim Carson: 11:26
Whatever spoils the whole bunch.
James Johnson: 11:27
Spoils the whole bunch. Yeah. It’s the exact same thing. You know, if you’ve got if you don’t have the right personalities in that room, it’s almost as bad as having an organization that you don’t like in that room. So definitely people is an important part of it as well.
And everyone’s great. It’s like a family reunion now when we go to those meetings, it’s awesome.
Kim Carson: 11:44
Yeah, it is really great. How do you determine like who should be like a Cleinman member? I know you said like you are talking to people, you’re collecting feedback. Are you just like listening in those conversations for, for people saying like, I need help with HR. And then you’re like, we have a thing for you.
Or how do you kind of determine, you know, what, what would be right for some people? Do we have like trial periods for people that you offer them? Like how, how does that work?
James Johnson: 12:14
Yeah, I mean, my job would be so easy if someone came to me and is like, I need HR and then they sign and it’s good like that. That’s a dream scenario.
Kim Carson: 12:22
They’re like, I think I actually need a peer to peer group. Do you have that?
James Johnson: 12:28
No. So really, honestly, most of the time what happens is there’s like three buckets that are like top level. Most doctors are dealing with these challenges, hiring and recruiting, bottom line versus so net versus growth, revenue, low profitability and exit. Those are like the three buckets that I see really often. And that’s usually the top level.
Like someone will come to me with, I need help with one of these three things in having all these conversations. I know that nine times out of ten, that’s not the actual issue. That’s the symptom. So I just have a conversation. I learn about their practice.
I learned about what they’re looking to do as a doctor because every, every doctor owner has a different goal. It’s what Cleinman doesn’t come in and say, you know, you have to do this, this, this, and every practice you work with is exactly the same in our vision. It’s not really how we operate. We take the doctor’s goal and what they’re trying to do, whether they’re trying to step into a CEO figure, they want to keep practicing, they want to build the practice to give to their kids. You know, there’s endless end goals.
So first, I really try to understand what is that end goal? Because then we can kind of work backwards to see, okay, if you’re trying to accomplish this, you’re here. This is what this is really what you need. You need to build a really strong playbook because your culture is being affected. That’s why you can’t hire.
So then, you know, we’ll, we’ll route them to HR or, you know, they don’t really understand. They’re not making money, but they don’t understand why benchmarking issue. They need to understand their business a little more. We’ll send them to consulting or they’re a big practice. They’ve got no one to talk to.
They feel alone. Peer to peer. We’ll link them up with other doctors, and they can really have a network of doctors to bounce ideas off of. So it’s really just discoverability. I’m talking a lot right now, but in a conversation, it’s the opposite.
I’m listening all the time and I just listen to them talk. And nine times out of ten, you know, they’ll kind of convince themselves, okay, that this will probably help me. Yeah. And the last thing that I want to say about that too, is I’m very everyone in the Cleinman team, we’re very aware of what we do and don’t do. And the last thing that I do in these conversations is like, try to push or, or, or pressure somebody to do something that I don’t think is going to help them.
There have been plenty of conversations where it’s been like, look, you’re kind of here. I don’t really know if it makes sense for us to do this yet. I think you need to focus on X, Y, Z, make sure that that’s good, and then you can invest in working with us because I’ve seen it before. You know, if they don’t have the bottom line to support working with us, they can’t really take the steps they need to, to really benefit from it. And I don’t want to be the person that’s like, you know, taking their last dollar.
Kim Carson: 15:07
Like, yeah.
James Johnson: 15:08
That’s not what we’re about. We’re almost all of our clients that I’ve seen, they’ve been successful with us. And that’s because of the upfront honesty and the business development process that we’ve delivered.
Kim Carson: 15:20
Like what you’re saying makes me think about our transitions team has strategic evaluations or assessments. Sorry. And you know, that’s like that came in, I think fairly recently, just like the HR services, it was just feedback from some of our, some of our current clients that was like, yeah, like, I’m not necessarily ready to sell yet. Like I still have, you know, ten, 15 years instead of the recommended 3 to 5. When you start planning, but they’re like, I actually like, don’t know what’s going on in my practice though.
I have my manager, you know, they’re super awesome. I have my office manager. They handle everything. I have my accounting, I have, you know, all of these structures in place. Like my business runs efficiently.
I just don’t know where it’s at. So we’ve started offering stuff like that, even where it’s like, you don’t like fully have to partner with us, but like you could kind of partner with us. Exactly.
James Johnson: 16:10
Yeah. It comes back to the, the end all be all is we want to help them with whatever they’re struggling with. Yeah. And so that’s why, you know, we’re constantly doing new things like that. And as we’re hearing feedback of ways we can also help them and improve, improve their practice, we’re working internally to figure out how we can do that and support that for them.
Kim Carson: 16:28
Do you maybe have a piece of advice or like, and I’ll, I’ll preface this with like my version of it, but do you have a piece of advice for someone who’s like, they’re not calling you up at this current second, but they maybe would like to ask themselves some of these questions to know if they should call you up. In my example here is like when I’m trying to get to the bottom of like, you know, when my, my like partner is upset and I’m like, you’re saying you’re upset, but I don’t think it’s about the thing that you’re telling me it is. I’ll try to play him with the five whys. So he’s like, I’m upset about this. And then I go, why?
And then he’s like, well, because of this. And I’m like, okay, why? And then you follow the ladder back up to the actual root of the problem. So that’s my version of it. Do you have a version that you want to share with people to maybe start this kind of questioning with themselves?
Like, do I need these services? Do I need like, do I even need a new EHR in my practice? Like, yeah, what should they be asking themselves?
James Johnson: 17:27
I mean, the simplest thing, and it sounds silly to say out loud, but it’s are you happy with where you are? Do do you understand where you’re going? Do you understand where you are now? Those two data points, I mean, it, it sounds silly for me to say like, yeah, of course I know where I’m going. Of course I know where I am, but most don’t.
I mean, they don’t really have a true grasp of this is exactly how we’re performing right now. And then a lot of them don’t, don’t, haven’t really taken the time to think about where do I want to be? What is my goal here? What? What’s my end all, be all.
How? How would I classify this business as successful? Once you understand those two things, the answer is pretty clear. If you need help or you don’t. I mean, yeah, you know, I mean, if you know where you are and you know where you’re going and you know how to get there, go for it.
If you don’t know how to get there, that’s where we come in.
Kim Carson: 18:16
Yeah. Or if you don’t even know where you are.
James Johnson: 18:19
Yeah. Well, yeah. And that happens more times than not. Yeah. Is that it’s optometry is a challenging business.
There’s a lot of aspects to it. So it’s not like we laugh, but it’s not, it’s common. You know, if you are a doctor that doesn’t really know where you’re, where you are right now, you don’t have a full grasp on your practice. You’re the minority, not the my or you’re the majority, not the minority there. Most don’t.
Kim Carson: 18:43
Well, I think Nancy Dewald does it all the time. She is like, you know, these doctors went to school to be optometrists and then all of a sudden they had to be like real estate agents, firstly to open or buy a practice. Then they had to become HR managers. Then they had to become marketers. Then they had to become office managers and people managers and, and leaders.
And they had to know, you know, the ins and outs of what an optician does, which they didn’t go to school for. They didn’t go to school to be a CEO. They went to school to be an optometrist. So it’s like, yeah, they have this great experience. They know how to do their job.
But there’s so many other aspects of being an owner o d just simply aren’t taught right. So it’s totally fair.
James Johnson: 19:25
Yeah, yeah. And that’s, and that’s the premise of peer to peer too is like, it’s almost like an academy of learning try of, of learning through the eyes of people who have been there, done that. So you can expedite that learning curve because I’ve, in all my years working here, I’ve probably talked to five ODS that have a business degree and the thousands of doctors that I’ve talked to and all those other thousands, they’re not going back to school. So but they also have to understand that stuff. So learning through the eyes of people who have been there done that is a very, very helpful way to do that.
Kim Carson: 19:54
Totally. So I have one last question for you before I ask it. I will point people to our sponsor. Again, that is marketing the number four marketing for cbs.com. And my final question for you, James, is, and I feel like you have slightly answered it a little bit, but what would you say that Cleinman offers our sponsor partners or our members?
That is like the driving purpose as to why they should partner with us?
James Johnson: 20:22
Yeah, I honestly, I think I think there’s two different answers there. I think for sponsors, it’s meaningful connection. I talk to sponsors all the time and they, when they hear meeting, they think going to an expo, sitting behind a booth and hoping people stop by that then might actually be qualified to work with them. We vet everyone in that room, everyone who comes to our meetings, from all of our clients to all of our sponsors. So, you know, everyone knows their purpose there and it’s much more meaningful.
So for sponsors, it’s definitely having a meaningful engagement experience with our clients, our team, other sponsors, and for our client members. I really think it’s tailoring. We’re we in talking with all the doctors that we’ve talked to the 30 plus years of experience we have in the network, we understand, you know, what we need to do to support them in any phase of their practice, and we can tailor it that way because like I said before, nine times out of ten, the doctor probably doesn’t even know what they need. So that’s where we come in. You know, we do the due diligence to understand how we can help them, and then we tailor it to them so that it fits their vision.
Kim Carson: 21:27
Yeah. Amazing. Well, thank you for joining me today. That is our show. So if you want to hear more of the podcast, you certainly can at Cleinman.com and wherever you like to listen.
Outro: 21:41
Thanks for listening. Thank you for listening. At Cleinman, we take pride in helping our partners unlock their full potential. Subscribe to get the newest episodes or visit us anytime at Cleinman.com.
